This is episode 36 of you’ll die trying. I’m Jonathan Carroll.
I’m Nathan Morris. Thank
you for joining us. Thank you man hey I’m coming in a little heavy hearted today. Really? Yep. Why? I don’t know, if it’s, you know, carrying some of my practice around with me or just some introspection, but I’ve been thinking a lot in the last 18 hours about brokenness and authenticity, and grief, my own and others. And I think it’s just it’s kind of it’s brought me to a place of I would say a bit of an epiphany. Just good. We’re still in the season of Epiphany, I think, right? I think we just ended. I think this is the second Sunday of Epiphany coming, but I don’t remember that stuff anymore. But anyway, no, I wouldn’t be the second.
I thought it ended on January 12. I
always thought but I think you’re right. Yeah. And it’s so it’s over. Yeah, I’m having a post epiphany epiphany. Yeah. And so I thought I would, I would ask you or talk to you a little bit about it. About how do you see or think about people as broken?
I, yes, they are, whenever you ask that question. I don’t walk around and say they’re broken. They’re broken all the time. But yes, I do. find myself being aware of that, from time to time.
I, it’s funny, because I tend not to do that. I mean, I know that we all are I mean, I’m not under the assumption or the fantasy that that there’s that we’re not that there’s perfection out there. Of course not. But I tend not to see that about people. I’ve always tried to see, I think the best in them while being honest, you know, and tell the truth in as measured and hope filled and empathic way as possible. But I think that I sometimes fail to reflect on my own brokenness on my own. And so when it just kind of comes at me out of nowhere, it’s it’s, it can be overwhelming. I think I had one of those moments last night.
Does this mean this entire episode I have to be a little bit more stoic?
I don’t know you have only you can decide for yourself what you have to be. Okay. Just read your script. So, you know, I was kid when my dad died just turned 15, four days earlier. And as we’ve talked about before, it seems like every TV show, there’s a, you know, a parent who goes missing, for one reason or the other. And it’s a theme. Obviously, it’s a theme, because it’s the theme in life. And I’m a participant in that theme. And I don’t think that I have, obviously I have not fully nor will I ever fully process, the magnitude of that bone crushing life altering grief of having a parent die when your kid because that’s your that’s your worst nightmare. You know, when your kid and it happened. But I carry a lot of that stuff around. And I’m not always completely aware of that a are honest about that B. And so then I got to thinking, Well, what does everybody carry around that they are not aware of a are honest about B. So I circle back again to this question of authenticity. And I’m reminded that I was taught that when that what someone talks about the most, they are experiencing the least. So I talk a lot about authenticity. And I have to test myself against that quotation. Which means maybe I’m experiencing that the least. So I started to kind of put all this stuff together. You know, tearfully and prayerfully. And with hope, and with help, and realized, yeah, I think that we all carry around a certain degree of brokenness that we don’t talk about. We’re not honest about even with the people with him, we should be honest.
Go may share something that I had a revelation about today that really coincides with this. It’s amazing that Yeah, before we were meeting today, to podcast to this 36 episode, which by the way, we’re grateful for you to be a part of Thank you very much, Brent, or not Brent Brent, we just talked to Drew and myself went to eat lunch, okay. And as I’m getting out of the SUV, I drive and Drew, I’m like, I’m glad you came to lunch with me. I’m finding myself becoming more reclusive. And he was like, really why? And I said, I don’t like being around people that much anymore. Because they make me a little bit nervous. And he asked me why. And then the world that I’m in of being around people all the time and people wanting of me and from me, it’s that transaction, they’re taking and taking and taking and taking, and it’s creating this sense of, maybe emptiness for me. So I tell him, I don’t go out in public without someone else. For fear of
Mm hmm. And other. Yep. So vulnerability. Yes. in one’s own personal work, is the opening of oneself to oneself. Mm hmm. And I think this is why people always have the TV on music playing social media scrolling in front of them, for fear of what they might encounter, in the quiet of their own presence, right.
So what do you and your, your epiphany? Yeah, talk more about that?
I ask people every day, excuse me to come into into my office to my clinical room and to tell their truth. Most of the time they do. Sometimes they don’t. I know that. That’s okay. That’s part of the process. It’s obvious when someone isn’t being completely honest with themselves or with me, or both. And that’s again, that’s part of the therapeutic process. And there isn’t anything wrong with that. People I don’t think trust themselves and their story, their truth with other people. So they carry it around on their own. And then I think they begin to pretend like that isn’t true. Like it’s not a part of them. Because what gets shared, becomes truer, right? Like, I can’t remember what movie it was. But this man told his wife, I just I had to tell you, because nothing’s real until I tell you, which is so powerful, right? And I think that’s, that’s, that’s a part of news, like, good news is meant to be shared. And when I have good news to share with you, or you with me, and we get excited for one another. It’s like it’s becoming real. You know, it might be great in my head. But it’s not until someone else can join me in that. And I think that the same is true with sadness. And I don’t think that people are good about telling their truth, being completely honest about it, being totally vulnerable, and trusting that they will be loved unconditionally. Not despite what they’ve said, but because of it. And I don’t think that’s just a problem that other people have. I think that that’s something that I wrestle with, too.
Can you put yourself in the shoes of sharing something intimate and scary to share? Your first fear is you don’t want people to tell everybody you know, yeah, that’s a scary thought. I’m going to Yes, trust. Yes,
it is. It is.
I mean, we’re in this world and society. I don’t trust many people. Overall. And I mean that with respect, and I feel like I have to defend that statement. And I’ve just bought I mean, is my deepest, I’ll say darkest for just relatability is secrets. I don’t tell just anybody as any would probably feels the same way. But my point is, is I’m not going to sit there and volunteer like, for instance, you announcing your epiphany and you know, your struggle with not having dealt with fully or nor ever with your father’s passing me. That’s a pretty bold thing to say and to announce, you know,
well, I have A man in my office this morning who told me that he finally informed his his wife that he is an alcoholic. And he had never said it to her. She had suspicions but you know, in good allanon fashion wasn’t keeping track was not her problem was just trying to be supportive without enabling. And finally, he said, You know what, I know that I have a problem. And he told her, and he was telling me about all this. And he said, But I told her not to tell anyone. And I said, What if sharing your truth with someone who is not your spouse, in this case, is a part of the key that unlocks all of the mystery of your sickness? You know, like, Why keep it a secret? What are we afraid of? We’re afraid that someone’s gonna think that we’re just like everyone else. Human being, that’s exactly what we’re afraid of
an actual human.
That’s what I worry about. You know, I don’t want people to think that I’m a typical human being, this is why I struggle with being right. This is why I don’t like Kritis it like it all fits together. All of the things that you and I have talked about, it all fits together, in that I haven’t yet grown comfortable with the contours of my own catastrophe, the shape of my own grief, after 28 years this year, and I’m not even ashamed to say it, it is very difficult to be fringed, and to get to know the ins and outs of the the trajectory of that of that trauma. And it’s obviously not it has not finished its work in me. And I encounter that sometimes, you know, I’ll watch a show. And there’s a father son scene and the father’s dead, but it’s a flashback, and you get all this, you know, all these emotions flowing. And typically, I’m okay with that. And I’m honest, like, I’ll, I’ll joy is kind enough to ask me, Hey, are you okay? Cuz she knows, I won’t say, Hey, I’m not okay. That’s the problem. That’s exactly the problem I’m talking about. She shouldn’t have to ask me, I should be the first one to say, I think I need you right now. Or I think we need to take a break, or I think I need to talk about this or no, I’m good. I’m good. You know, it’s just a good, like, I need to be able to tell that truth, but I don’t. And neither do most others. At least in my experience. So and I would bet I would put a wager on the fact that that might be true for you. 200%, because you’re human 100%. Imagine the things you carry around and being able to go home and talk to your spouse about 100%. No filters, no expectations, no fear of judgment, no shame. You were just able to just tell her your truth. How liberating that would be right. But my guess is you probably don’t do that.
I don’t. Yeah, I don’t I I tend to keep it. Keep it to myself. And why do we do that? Why do you do that? Exactly the same reason you just said two minutes before is this idea that I don’t want to be like everyone else. I I’m not a human being? Yeah, I’m perfect. I’m perfect and flawless and incapable of hurt. And
and the more we think that way, the heavier that burden becomes because we start shaming ourselves for carrying it in the first place. And we go farther into the woods, away from the light in the sounds of the voices of the people who would take care of us if we would let them write and we ultimately end up in the dark and cold and alone. And other people feel rejected by that. People who have trusted themselves to us who have been honest with us who have been open and vulnerable to us feel rejected when we don’t return the favor. Because it’s okay for you to be broken and I will hold you in it. It is not okay for me to be and for you to hold me in it.
What if we all just admitted that we’re not okay? I’m not okay. I’m not either.