Ep 64 – Frick

Do you think that the gods of the podcast universe are against us because of the technical difficulties?

Yes, yes. Yes is ridiculous.

It should be easier than this.

I don’t know what the problem is.

We think it’d be easier just to have 1 million green bean cans. And just stretch them out to our listeners and talk to them through those with the string,

it would be a lot easier than what currently is happening. Did you ever have a neighbor friend? You grew up in a friend’s mom to silence for all those who?

I want that to laugh, but I knew that would be insensitive. So I just told my bad friends.

Yes, I had neighbor friends. had a friend who was not allowed to leave their house until five o’clock is very weird. That is really true story, man.

Well, I had a friend who moved into my, my neighborhood from California and I played the let me introduce you to everyone roll. And then he proceeded to get to know everyone else. And then like turn against me for some reason

I thought you’re gonna say proceeded to introduce him to everyone and after two people.

No, I was like, you know, wanted to make sure he recognized the hospitality of Deep Creek, which is the neighborhood and area in which we lived High School was at the end of our street. And he proceeded to get to know everyone and then you know, call me names and stuff. Yeah, his name is Wesley.

What’s Wesley done? Now?

I’m saving his last name. Because you know, I’m guaranteeing us Lee’s not a listener.

What is Wesley doing now? Do you think? Well, if you had to guess what, Wesley, let’s play this game. Let’s play it. What’s Wesley doing right now? Someone who’s essentially was a bully. Yeah, he

was really. He was like,

what’s the bully Wesley doing?

I fell off a six foot high fence and I pulled all the muscles in my back and I couldn’t get up by myself. And he left. And I had to walk my bike back to my house and lay on the sofa to my mom and dad came home from work. I couldn’t move. I thought I was paralyzed. Wow. So what is he doing now? He’s probably a chiropractor.

I don’t know what he’s doing now. But anyway, I’ve always always wanted to have that one friend who was like, you know, had walkie talkies. You would talk late at night and I had friends like that, but they didn’t live near me. All my friends lived far, far away. 15 minute drive.

I’ll be your friend that weekend. walkie talkie we still live far, far away. You and me. Yeah. No, we don’t.

I can’t stretch a walkie talkie signal to Yes, yes. You can. Oh, we just text each other.

I know. But like, let’s literally go there. You have less than two miles from our house says

it. Yeah, probably is. Yeah. As the creaky go to the dollar store. And buy the kids. Okay, it’s on. We’re gonna do it.

Are we really? Yeah, I

want to see if it works. I don’t I don’t think I don’t think you can find $1 store. walkie talkie

I’m not going to dollar store. Stab me.

Someone just got shot at the dollar store here in town. Fourth Street. I got stabbed. Oh, okay. Either way. Still bad stabbing,


It’s scary. Well, big fight over walkie talkies.

I can tell you this. You’re safe here with us. Ladies and gentlemen, on the 64th episode of you’ll die trying I assure you of that.

I’m Jonathan Carroll. I

am Nathan Morris. And you are you and we are grateful

that you’re here. Check this out

fries are made I’m moving my arms because I’m dancing. Even though I didn’t hear it, but I’m dancing.

No, I heard it. It’s good. Brent lane, you can sing me I’m not gonna I’m not gonna lie to you. rocked it out. I have something that I’d like to share with you. It comes from a conversation that I had with a client of mine who also happens to be a friend of mine. And yes, you therapists out there. That is what you call a dual relationship. And yes, I’ve considered all the ethical considerations and all as well. I’m not professional, but he had a good line. And it’s a line that I’ve used prior to but I’m going to give him credit for it and he said you cannot love what you need. Now I think it first We might push back on that a little bit. Because I think we’re just so ingrained in this idea that love and need are the same, come from the same place and end up at the same place. Partly because many of our love relationships, which is all of our relationships, really with the exception of acquaintance or colleague or co worker relationships, all of of love, and they also involve need. And so we kind of equate love and need such that we live in large leap co dependent relationship systems. I need something from you. You need to be needed. Perfect match made in heaven, except for that it’s the exact opposite. It’s very intense, it’s very uncomfortable, and it’s probably not going to last it’s probably not really a good relationship at all. Disaster. You need to be you. That’s really what you need. I need to be me. That’s what I need. I don’t need to be needed, nor do I need to be needy. But many people are in relationships of codependent nature. And so they equate love and need. So what do you think, Nathan? about this? You cannot love what you need.

Mind blowing. It’s pretty profound. So simplistic. The statement yet so rich? Yes. Yeah.

Do you have you ever found yourself in a relationship where you believed that you needed it?

Honestly, no. I like to feel needed.

Wait, you’d like to be needed? Yeah. You need to be needed. Yeah. Makes you feel good. Connected?

No. I mean, I don’t want to say it makes me feel good. But I don’t need but I don’t know. Like,

think about that for a second. Do you? I mean, do I by the way, it’s not like right or wrong. Right. Good. I understand. Trying to figure that out. But yeah, do you enjoy when people need something from you? And you know, you can provide it?

Yeah, there probably a lot of times where I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Do you find it easy to empower people to give themselves what they need? Or do you find yourself more likely trying to meet that need for them?

Up until recently, it was that the ladder? Yes. Up until recent was that but it wasn’t it was actually unintentional. Really? Yeah, maybe. I mean, that’s very subconscious unintentional was subconscious. Sure. Sure. Up until recent, then now it’s shift, the shift has happened, where it’s like, Let’s empower. Yeah, I think that that’s, that’s the right way

to be. I experienced that shift in my former career, serving as a, a pastor of a congregation was that hard to leave that that career, um, felt like it would be like, it really wasn’t. Okay. And here’s why it would have been had I left at about five years in. Now, granted, I’m talking about this particular congregation, I did that for a total of 20 years. But my last 10 years, was was here in Owensboro, Kentucky, the first five of those last 10 years, my first five years of that particular congregation, I was in that former category where I believed that I needed to do things for these people. I think I believed I needed to teach for them, proclaim for them, pray for them, serve for them, do mission for them, believe for them.

How many times did you get shingles?

I know it’s weird that I never did. Then I began to shift in my thinking, I began to shift in, in my formation as a person and and found that I didn’t, and shouldn’t be trying to do any of that for anyone, whether it be family, church, people, friends, anyone. So I made that shift. And it was amazing. And of course, I was taught that I would experience this. It was amazing what kind of pushback you get for that. Because people had kind of come to expect that. And then when I stopped doing that I didn’t leave or become anything in terms of like poor attitude. I just stopped doing things for people and became encouraging that they do it for themselves. And people experienced it. I think a little bit like we’re Objection. Because when you’ve been pursuing someone, and then you stop pursuing them, people could think, Oh, you’re not pursuing me anymore, which is the same thing as you’re rejecting me. No, I was just standing, still hoping to encourage and empower them. So I picked I got a lot of that a little bit of that feedback of, and it was course very unconscious, but that I needed to be doing more for them. When really, I need to be doing less all along. So the last five years were made up of, I think, really encouraging and empowering people to kind of faith and pray and believe and serve and do on their own. For their own sakes, which I think was the best thing that could have happened. But it made people very uncomfortable. I know a lot of 12 Leaving wasn’t hard.

Yeah, I know a lot of people who have codependent relationships. When we talk about it. We’ve talked about it recently. And it’s been something that’s been at the forefront of my mind. And it’s not something that I’m throwing, you know, wrenches or stones at rather stones, you know, yeah, I just, it’s just something to be mindful of. I mean, this life is just a bunch of people really struggling to figure stuff out. And their place contains a funny story about what I say to say some stupid because that’s pretty

common to zoning. And did you say stoning people? Yeah, did

say throwing wrenches at first, but then did literally throwing stones across Yeah.

Well, one year, you know, I followed the lectionary when I preached it. I don’t think I’ve told this story to you before, but I follow the lectionary, which is an assigned series of readings, Old Testament, New Testament, a Psalm and a gospel every Sunday. And many churches celebrate these same readings throughout the world, not just the country, the Revised Common Lectionary. And considering what today is today of recording is April 22. So on April 20, which was a Sunday 420 was a Sunday and 420 is known throughout this country anyway, as the national kind of cannabis day, right? And students at whatever university it is gathered around the statue of Louis Pasteur and Louis Pasteur and they would all you know, smoke marijuana and celebrate whatever. And that’s, that’s what for 20 years, and so I follow Snoop Dogg on Instagram. And

the he made a business one of those nights that you had a couple of glasses of wine.

Oh, no, no, this is every every night. So anyway, on that Sunday, which was April 20 420, guess what story? Was the gospel? Reading for the day?

Stone getting stoned

Stephen, the first martyr, who died by getting stoned Can you believe that? So actually told the story, just like I’m telling it to you right now to tell people how ironic the lectionary is I’m not sure that they really got the humor, just as I’m sure you don’t. But yes, me. I think that is so interesting. Anyway, the point is, and you were saying, People do tend to lapse into codependency. And I think it’s because well, it’s for a lot of reasons. But I would like to encourage

is it safe? Is codependency safe? Let’s go there for a minute.

Well, it’s, it’s really not for your it’s not it might feel that way. Okay. And I think it feels that way, in part because we’ve been taught this along and we’ve watched it. We’ve watched our parents, our grandparents, maybe even our siblings grow up into relationships where they complement one another. Jerry Maguire, You complete me, you know, you’re the other side of me. You’re my better half. Right? So in our language and if you listen to pop music, the codependency is writ large. I mean, you you basically pick any pop song right now. And if you were to read the lyrics, you would find codependency evidenced in those lyrics. I need you What would I do without you? Every song from the 1980s

I need to know exactly more than words can say Honey, do you know it’s

100% togetherness 100% codependency and very unhealthy now, it makes for great romantic, lyric.

I mean, they are really romantic, like

the movies, the books, it’s all about codependency. Where are those books? He is not romantic. Where are the books where people say you be you and I’ll be me and we’re together because we want to be not because we have to be and so we’re going to learn how to live alone together.

That is all I would read that book. That’s the ideal relationship look like that. Can we find that?

I’m sure there is. Let’s

find it. You’re the bookworm. You’re the one that has like, bookshelves falling over and held up by concrete slabs.

Whenever I preach a wedding. That’s what I preach. And people are like that. That’s unlike any wedding homily we’ve ever heard. And I’m like, I know what they’re saying. They’re saying, you know, that was ridiculous. Because we want the smolts we want the romance. We want the Uzi goosy. Heartfelt give me goosebumps. But that’s not the stuff that sustains a relationship. That’s not real, is it? It’s real, but it’s temporary, temporary, and temporary. I like that. It’s like your your Irish

Moorish. I don’t know what happened there. So

yeah, I think that it’s it doesn’t sell books, it doesn’t sell songs, it doesn’t sell code. codependency is not selling things, you know, it’s so actually, it is selling things. Being individual, and being strong on your own isn’t selling. And I can say this, as the dad of daughters, that our culture still very much expects that women will be dependent on men. And it is very much struggling with the idea that women do not want to depend on men nor should they be expected to. And there is an entire kind of political machine built around keeping that model alive. And it’s not it’s it’s in its last gasp huh? Women are equal in every possible way that matters. And that is not the language or the narrative of our culture. Still.

Sorry, I was gonna change the mood in the air. Do you remember the boy band together? We had to get there. Okay. It’s kind of a joking. Group. One of the members actually ended up dying. It was like at the end of the 90s are right at 2000. They’re like you plus sign me. Equal sign us. I know my calculus. Anyway, that’s codependency.

Yeah, I think that’s that’s why have I never heard of this. Why

are you feeling sorry for me now and trying to help me?

Yeah. You’ve never heard that. Really? No, no. I’ve never heard.

I mean, it wasn’t like real. It wasn’t a real thing. It was funny thing that ended up selling a lot of records and they don’t like a spinal tap. Kind of, but that’s actually really funny.

I’ve never seen it. Really. No, I’m not interested. I know it comes all the hate mail. As if we get mail. Well, actually, we did get mail do get makeup mail today. We got a graduation invitation today.

Did we really addressed to you and me? Oh my gosh, is this real? Yes. Okay,

you’ll die trying podcasters Nathan Morris, Jonathan Carroll, inviting us to the graduation of two people who are getting their doctorates.

Are we going?

I really want to go because I want to see these people. It’s been a while since I’ve seen them. And a shout out to. To them Jason and Kyle. That’s awesome.

Thank you all. Yeah. Okay.

It came in the mail today. I just opened it. Let’s address specifically to you and to me. Well,

if we cannot make it, I wish you all the best. But

that’s very thoughtful. It’s not because we don’t want to that’s for sure. That is for sure. Are

you taking a picture of me? No. Oh.

So I thought that was really cool. So we do get mail. That was the point of that. Okay. But anyway, I want to I want to ask you to think about that was my mic. Okay,

good. I thought there was just like granny, you know, whatever mind people don’t I want

you to think about with me for a moment, ways that you contribute to creating dependency in people. Because if in fact you are one who enjoys being needed, that means you probably encouraged dependency in some way rather than individuation and self sustenance. Are there ways that you encourage dependency that other people will need you for something?

Amin providing someone a job opportunity? Is that right? Kind of

what do you think? Yes.

Okay, I bet that’s that. I don’t know if that’s a

bad ad. I mean, obviously, from a business perspective, you want people to depend on you and your locations and your staff for excellence and service in their greatest time of need. Like that’s that’s a legitimate. I think craving for is that bash your look, you’re talking about market share more than you’re talking about emotional dependency. Yeah, but I’m talking about emotional dependency, where someone’s like, I’m not able to do this unless I have, you know, Nathan’s blessing, because that’s one very popular form of leadership and entrepreneurial business, that people who are, for instance, from the ground up, they’re part of something from the ground up with the startup, they either are given an opportunity to branch out on their own and do things and, and reflect and decide whether that was good whether they would do it again, or, which is, which would be kind of like a permission giving permission granting model, or it’s kind of that top down model. Like we’re not we can’t do that unless the leader says it. And we’re dependent on the leader for our direction and for the vision and

can you have it, you can have the best you can have both? Right?

I think you I think you can I think you can have the leader creating the vision with input, and then delivering that vision and say, now go do with this, what you’re able to do with your particular gift set, and you have carte blanche to go and try and if it doesn’t work, we’ll talk about it. We’ll retool, but I’m gonna leave that up. I think we do that. Okay. I think we do that. A dependence. Dependence see? Yeah, the pin. It’s, it’s something to think about for sure. Yeah, it is. Because I think that the riskier, but the healthier way of managing, and leading, is permission giving, go and do you have the skills, you’ve been taught the skills, you know, you hire character, and you train skill. So you want to make sure that you hire people who are upstanding people, you can always teach them what you need them to do, but you want them to have the best character, attitude personality possible. So rather than hiring people who you think they’re going to be able to step right in and do the job, should hire the people that you know, are really, really excellent people and then teach them the job. When you’ve done that. You can free them to go and do because they have the character, they’re not going to take advantage, they’re not going to run away with the sense of kind of, in, in titled authority, they’re going to do the very best they can with what they have. And they’re going to do it because you’ve invested in them and you’ve trusted them, they’re going to honor that trust, because that’s the character they are, because that’s the character you hired. So as you hire excellence in people, those people provide excellence in, in skill delivery, and in product delivery, and in process delivery. Because you’ve given them the opportunity, and you’ve given them the freedom and even the permission to go and do. And so you don’t have to micromanage because you know, you trust them as people and you know that they’re going to be able to do the right thing. All they need is a green light.

Do you have any codependent relationships?

I have had, of course, I have had in my life, right? Probably most relationships that were of a romantic nature in my youth, of which there were not many. Because, you know, I think most people fall in love or they fall in like, or they are infatuated with people because those people remind us of ourselves. And so we fall in love with what we see of others that reminds us of us, which is of course you know, narcissistic act, it’s very natural. We just need to kind of grow up and grow out of that, right. But and I think even as a parent, there was some codependency for me because I felt like I needed. I wanted anyway my kids to have a certain experience and a certain memory set to think about me in a certain way. And so I would maybe not do some things that I should do because I didn’t want to kind of harm that or threaten that anyway, so maybe I wasn’t as hard on them or as good of a disciplinary and as I should have been. But I think all of that has gone by the wayside. Since you know, this morning, and as a result, I think most of my relationships now if not all are not codependent I know that my marriage is not a codependent relationship and that’s because of a lot of hard work on both our parts to make sure that we honor recognize celebrate the diversity and difference between us and let it stand. And at the same time be you know, be with and beside one another not because we need to because my wife doesn’t need me for anything. But the fact that she’s still theirs is because she wants to be and that’s you know, that’s a beautiful gift and I think that’s the healthiest of relationships.

I don’t know if this coincides with This subject but you had said previously? No, I can’t remember. And I was going there. Dang it. HUVEC right after this break

Yeah, I still don’t have it. Well, if it comes back to you,

it won’t it’ll, after I’m driving home and you know, like six episodes from now?

Well, it all just comes back to this whole question of love and need. And Dubai. Can’t love what you need.

I buy it. But don’t you love air? I don’t think about loving air, like breathing air, oxygen. I mean, I love life. So we go really deep. I mean, just throwing wrenches now, but I’m

just saying, and stones. Yeah, I don’t hasty, I can’t think of a relationship that that I have. Or have had, where there has been legitimate, authentic, genuine love. And need. I mean, obviously, of your parents, as an infant, but as an infant, you don’t love your parents,

you definitely need them just

dependent on 100%. dependent, yeah, because we’re still in an animal self. And then when we evolve out of that into our self, there’s still a sense of need. But I think we develop a sense of love. And this would be interesting to think about and read about and talk about more. But I know because we, we need and we become conscious of need very early. And our parents tell us how much they love us very early. And we say I love you, too. Like we love to hear our little kids say I love you in there, they have no idea what they’re talking about, right? I still don’t know what I’m talking about when I say that sometimes because such a profound concept. But to say I love you to someone whom I need, I think from a very early age, we begin to associate and equate love and need. So I think that we grow up thinking, I love you because I need you, even though that’s unconscious to us. So then we go looking for people who else we believe that we need and we say, well, I love you too, because I need you. But we don’t again, not conscious to us. When we bring it to consciousness, we can say yeah, there’s nothing wrong with that until we really think about it. Right? Well, okay, so that is a little narcissistic and codependent. How would I do it differently? And we’d have to rewind the tape all the way to the beginning and start from there. And of course, we can’t do that. So starting now, we should really think about what does it mean to love someone because of who they are, not because of what they can do for us. Because once again, that goes back to that transactional nature of relationships. If you can do something for me, that I will be in relationship with you, the minute you stopped doing something for me, I’m no longer in relationship with you. But that was never love. That was compulsion, duty, obligation, or just transaction. But if you don’t give you don’t bring me anything. And I love you nonetheless, that to me is is authentic love to web,

that’s true of everybody. Hey, can I cannot you would never but how can our listeners get a hold of you at the clinic at the montgomery,

you can email me at the montgomery or you’ll die trying

That’s awesome. Those are what we call nuggets, ladies and gentlemen, I don’t recall what it was an eye like I said probably won’t. But I can recall this I can recall the fact that time and time again, Dr. Carroll, you bring insight and thought provoking things to topics, ideas for us to take home. And I appreciate that, you know, you can’t love what you need. I just I think that we should evaluate reevaluate the relationships in our lives. circle back to that, and I don’t think we’re ever too old or too far gone ever, you know, to try to start a new that’s what this whole podcast is about, you know, like starting over, giving it a shot giving it our best and, you know, where our hope is, is that things that we say? You know, kind of verbally hold your hands as you try this out. So, for those of you who are struggling, obviously I am to you know with codependency of some sort in the past present, maybe struggle with a little pieces of it from time to time. You’re not alone. You are not alone.

So, thank you for that. Yeah, man. Visit us on Facebook, Instagram DieTrying podcast, send us an email, like, share, give us five star review. Let people know that you’re listening. And we’re going to continue to bring you the best that we’ve got. Hope it’s good enough.

I’m Nathan. Jonathan. Jason callow. Thank you offer some invitation.

Yeah congratulations on your