Ep 70 – WOW

Well, I know I don’t know who should say it. You go. No, you know, you do it. No. I want I. This time I think it really should be. I always say it. Are you serious? Are you sure you wish? Cheers, guys, gals, Episode 70

This is on 7070 Can you believe that?

Yeah, some people don’t even live to be 70 years old. Some

people don’t even listen to our podcast episodes. That’s very true. It’s weird. So weird, wouldn’t you? I

know you’re ridiculous. If you don’t for those of you who do

it, have you? Yes. Episode 70 of your die trying. I am Jonathan care. I

am Nathan Morris. You are you and we are grateful. Are we not?

Thanks for listening. I’m grateful. Gosh, let’s do this thing that we do ma so it’s a beautiful day and then even the neighbor. Oh, sorry, beach to it. You’re not even wearing your cardigan.

I know. I have cardigans, though. Oh, absolutely. I

love cartoons.

I want apparel cardigans are legit.

I have a Ralph Lauren one that’s navy blue. And it has a big puffy collar and beautiful wood buttons. And everyone always says I look like a therapist when I wear it. And you love it. Well, I mean, you are a part of it. Yeah, it’s part of the stick. You look like a man. What’s your favorite Disney movie?

Oh, I don’t know. Because last time I said something about Disney movie. It was so wrong. What movie was it? Oh, yeah. What? Pocahontas? We were hanging out the other night. And I was seeing in the pain on a nanny. Hey, Nanny nanny, that was actually quizzing you because you have four girls and they probably had watched those

movies. Yeah, I think they had but I did not know that reference. And I felt underprepared.

Well, Hey nonny, Nonny, hey, Nanny, that’s only part of the song. I know.

Well, I like these kind of live action remakes of the Disney movies. I’m just I’m gonna be shameless in my admission of that. My favorite to date is Beauty and the Beast. Although the Lion King is coming out, you know? I

can’t wait. Aladdin.

I don’t know. Will Smith though. Yeah, I mean, he looks you know, Will Smith just started a YouTube channel. And within like hours, he went up to like 5 million or six verse Chrissy did, so I think it was who was it? Oh, it was Peter McKinnon, Peter McKinnon, a YouTube influencer, just one I think like developing YouTuber of the Year award. And he talked about Will Smith and how he just started a channel and he shot past him in like two hours. That’s crazy, because Peter McKinnon has, you know, millions of subscribers. Yeah. But anyway, I wanted to have a quick conversation about beauty in the beast, hostages and marriage. Okay, sounds fun.

It sounds kind of nerve wracking.

Before we get into it. I think that we should have a special word of thanks to our sponsor.

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270926 9600. That’s Kentucky Farm Bureau. Robert edge. Thank you for sponsoring our episode. So I wanted to have this very interesting conversation. Let’s do it. Beauty in the beast. No. I think it’s a I think it’s everyone’s favorite Disney movie about Stockholm Syndrome. That’s what it is. Stockholm Syndrome, as you may know, is a condition where hostages develop a psychological alliance with their hostage taker as a way of kind of coping with the traumatic and tragic circumstances of their situation. So you’ll you know, find that someone has been in someone’s hostage taking for two years. And they don’t almost they don’t want to escape because they don’t want to hurt the feelings. I mean, this is it’s a it’s a really tragic and sad thing. But sometimes it can be used to forge an alliance that you’re doing on purpose so that you can gain trust and then escape. But in any event, Beauty and the Beast is a story about where the beast tells bill that she can explore everywhere in the castle except one place. And it’s called, interestingly the West Wing. Now this is not Aaron Sorkin’s incredible Docu drama about the White House, you know, featuring President Jed Bartlet. That’s, that’s a different West Wing. But the West Wing of this castle is off limits to Bell who is as you know, the beasts hostage. And this things that we really don’t think about Disney writers man they’re really kind of messed up sometimes. But any event

she really is a hostage. You don’t think about it. She’s so beautiful. And he

seems so like willing and stuff. But she’s she’s a hostage. And she’s told not to go to the West Wing. So where does she go five minutes in the West Wing. And what does she discover there?

She discovers the rose

a secrets the the realities of the beasts past the enchanted rose, and a sullen beast stomping around in all of his fields. Right? So she’s curious, she’s led straight into the place where she’s not supposed to be, which is the beasts emotional core. This is his own personal trigger, the West Wing. So the beast is the beast, in part because he was scared to face his enduring vulnerabilities. And we’ve talked a lot about vulnerability in our podcast. And I think the beast looks the way he does and acts the way he does because he refuses to show himself to another person. So he’s a he’s really his own prisoner. He is scared to share his feelings and as a result to be known, which, of course, is not unlike a lot of us. So here’s what I propose, if Bill had never gone into the West Wing, obviously, the plot would never have advanced, right? The movie would be summarized as a self centered beast keeps this bookish girl in his castle and remains a self centered beast. But that’s how the story would have gone. But the beast ultimately shared and addressed his vulnerabilities and his wounds, and his past and his sensitivities. And they grew closer. And spoiler alert, the beast and the beauty fall in love. So here’s the question, what would happen? If you shared something from your West Wing? With your partner, your spouse that you haven’t shared before? How would it advance the plot? Well, I recently did. Yeah, sure about it? Well,

I mean, it was, it’s kind of like, when you’re a kid, you know, you think you’re so sly and smart. You can pull it over on your parents who, in fact, where kids wants to? Yeah, so you’re not getting away with anything. It’s kind of that way. With that a relationship. You know, you may not have to acknowledge it, and you you meaning the person that’s quote, unquote, keeping the secret. The secret already is out there. So it’s one of those things when you acknowledge it. Yeah. Allowing someone in to the West Wing it actually it helps 100% That changes everything. Yeah, it literally changes everything.

Which would you say? That you are accomplished, at going home? And sitting down? Or walking alongside or wherever you might find yourself in your home with your wife? Are you accomplished at letting her in to the things that you struggle with? The insecurities, the fears, the the sadnesses the anxieties? Do you? Are you an open book completely? And an unadulterated way? No. Do you wish you were

I need to say yes. I don’t know. I’m better at at it. You said accomplished. I’m not an accomplished. Like, I think I’m an accomplished pianist who can play these beautiful pieces. I’m not. Yeah, that way

I do. I do a better job than I used to that is for sure. So make an effort. Yeah, that’s, I think important. So I should

want to say yes, like you want to want to say yes, I want to want Yes, but so far, not yet. Not yet. So there’s nothing hopeful.

Yeah, there’s nothing wrong. I don’t know. I’m speaking personally, I don’t feel there’s anything wrong, but maybe there is. There is there is just let me know if it’s on me. That’s on me. Sorry, I’m just over here talking to my friend.

Well, yeah, I mean, I don’t think that it’s about something wrong as you know, goods Bad’s right. But, but I think that might, that could be an area of growth. And I’m not saying that you have to, you know, unzip the bag that holds your deepest, darkest secrets, and, you know, walk around pouring them on everyone. But I do think that the emotional intimacy we share with those who are closest to us, grows, develops, matures and deepens as we are more disclosed sieve of those things about ourselves that we tend to keep to ourselves. Again, I don’t think that it needs to be telling every aspect of your of your life, I think there are things that people inevitably keep to themselves, whether they know that they are or not, but one of the attributes that’s important in my relationship with joy is that we, we do talk about those things. And I have to say, she’s a hell of a lot better at it than I am. And it’s weird, right? Because you think, I would think that I would be better at that, because of what I do and my personality, but I have been very protective, and almost closed off, certainly defensive about certain aspects of my person, that I didn’t want necessarily anyone to see for fear that if they did, they would run far, far away or real human. And we struggle, we have struggled with that I have struggled with that. And then joy continues to demonstrate her openness and her receptivity. And I continue to not, it seems like not trust that that’s what it comes down to. Not trusting that she is going to be there to hold that and hold me in that space and be okay with it. And then, you know, I’ve learned to, to, to get better at it. And she’s, of course, demonstrated impeccable receptivity and openness to that. But I do think that we all of us walk around with our haunting and steaming feelings that we kind of stomp around in like we are the beast in our own West Wing. And I think we’d do well to let people someone see inside. Take a look around and give us some help.

Thing. Talk to Carol.

So there’s your marriage moment. Did you say that

they were going to talk about the beast? And then marriage? Did you say some about baseball too? I don’t, I don’t. You probably didn’t. I just had a stroke, a mild stroke. I need to

I just think that we in our podcast we need to every now and then have a marriage moment. And there’s your moment for your marriage or other relationships.

Yeah, I was. I was just taking my pulse to make sure I’m still alive.

My heart’s been palpitating recently. Too much coffee. No, I don’t drink very much coffee. Except when you’re here. Yeah. Yeah. And I’m not drinking sodas. And, you know, on a regular. So yeah, I don’t know.

You are dying. We all are. Yes, we are. Yeah, yeah. I killed this fly over here in the corner. That was buzzing around my head all morning long. It’s literally probably four inches long. It’s so gross. It’s on the floor here guys.

I don’t want to see it. It’s

fine. It’s just gonna get vacuumed up here and short. Short bit.

So would you be willing to let me and community into your West Wing?

Are you getting ready to West Wing me? That’s let’s create that verb. Yeah, that’s fine.

I’m going to West Wing you swing your plane.

I’ll plead the fifth if I need to, but we can go there. Are you going to really start like dissecting my westwing?

No good, nothing good. Well, one of the things in the West Wing for the beast was the rose. We think that our past and trauma and bad feelings are ugly. And even though there was a little bit of a spell involved in the Rose, it’s so beautiful thing. I think that our lives are full of beautiful and tragic things. It’s all about how you look at

it. My past would be a llama.

Have we talked about how you can hope in the past?

No, but this is that’s intriguing to me. Did my llama comment not intrigue you and

just went right by it? Yeah, I

mean, funny, cute animals. They’re seeing the llama race. Anyway, go on

the one that they do for the derby? Yes. Yeah. It’s cute.

It’s really funny. Okay, go on. No, in the past. No, I don’t know what that means. And I want to Oh, okay. Hope in the past.

Yeah. So traditionally, and I don’t know if we’ve talked about this. No. Okay. Traditionally, we we tend to hope for the future. We hope for things to come. I mean, there are even people who are in kind of Christian circles. I would be able to quote Hebrews chapter 11, where we learn that hope is the that faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. So hope is it has this kind of future orientation, this kind of forward trajectory. In a therapeutic world, it’s important that people know they, they can still hope in their past, not in the sense that they can change their past. But in that they can change how they think about their past, they can change what meaning they assign to the things that have happened to them. And that’s how you can hope I can hope that what happened, I can reframe how I think about it, and assign a new meaning to it, and allow it to strengthen me rather than tear me down and use it to move forward and upward rather than to pull me back and down. So I would like to invite people who are needing to think about their West Wing, to ask is it necessary that we have this room of remembrance of all the trauma traumatic and tragic things that have happened to us? Why not rethink and reframe how we think about what has happened to us? It doesn’t necessarily have to always be tragic, there are things that have happened to us that are tragic, there are people to whom terrible unspeakable things have happened. Healing is probably not going to ever fully happen. There are always gaping wounds. But how we think about what happened and what meaning we assigned to it matters. Think about the people who have been abused, tortured. Who have been, what’s the word there’s there have been, oh, starts with an M, who have been wounded, physically and otherwise, and who have risen up out of that experience in order to start nonprofit organizations for the sake of saving children from the sex slave and trafficking industry. People who have risen up from deep abject poverty, to create schools for children who before weren’t allowed to go to empower women who might live in cultures where women are dehumanized like people who have experienced, deep, painful trauma, have been able to reassign meaning to what happened and use that as fuel, to burn a new kind of fire to start life and give things that are beautiful to people. I think that’s, I think that’s possible for all of us. My guess is that you and people listening have experienced sad things, and we’ve been able to turn those experiences into good. I think that’s the goal. That’s the hope. That’s the hope of the human existence. Thanks for that. I appreciate that. We’ll be right back. You’re looking at me, now you’re looking at me. I know we’re looking at one another. Sweet No. Still looking

at a paper rock scissors to see who starts.

Okay, one time one time only three and then hit paper. Rock to my scissors to me. So Nathan. So Jay, is there an experience that you’ve had, that you can look back on and say, I have transformed what that could have been? And used it for good. 100% Oh, good. Anything you can share?

I’m not going to Okay, not right now. I think it’s one of those things. It’s actually a very, it was a very deep wound for a very long time. That happened in my childhood. And it’s something that I carried with me up until my young adult hood which of course had since obviously dealt with that’s ugly dealt with.

I yeah, I I’m with you. I don’t like to ever dealt with it. Like I hate when people say I

have to deal with to deal with this. No, that’s not that’s not what you do. Well, I tackled it. You addressed it.

I’ve come to terms come

to terms. Anyway, maybe one day? Yeah, you know, I talk about it more openly in like smaller circles. Sure. Because I think it’s a great conversation to have, because it’s amazing how many people have similar stories. Yeah, and are able to relate and realize that we’re all just humans and I just did it. The last time I did it from the last podcast, I’m stopping myself. It’s good to have conversation with people in small circles who have gone through it together and realize that we are humans. And we are humans who are constantly evolving. And the smaller circles that I was referring to before I said, just because it’s not just our very strong people anywho Yes. So to answer that question in a very vague manner, the answer is yes. Probably

yes. For every, every person. Yeah, exactly.

I don’t know of any person in this world, and I would love to meet them. I would love to meet someone who has had this impeccably picturesque, perfect life.

Well, can I ask you a theological question? Sure. How do you personally reconcile the notion that there is an all loving, all good and all powerful God, who coexists? In a world where there’s evil and suffering? Like how do you personally address the question of evil in theology? This is called theodicy. It’s the greatest unanswered question to date for Christianity. How can we live with the discrepancy of an all powerful, all loving and all good God? Who lives alongside a world that is seemingly broken? And in suffering? How do you personally reconcile your faith? To my question,

my knowledge, and faith tells me that free will be you know, choosing a red pill, blue pill, if you want to get matrix on it, or whatever that is ingrained in human beings. And we as humans, we kind of direct our own movie. Mm hmm. And an all loving all knowing all powerful God. Yes. Can and probably oftentimes does interject in ways in which we are maybe are aware or not aware, yet of allows for things to to happen that aren’t good. So I believe in free will. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s real. I mean, if you shave, if you put up two shirts right now, and you say, Hey, man, which one do you like more, which one you want to wear right now? I’ll be like, I want to wear that one. Maybe the other one, if I work had a different outcome. Everybody made fun of me and called me some really terrible name. I don’t know.

Well, I like your answer. There. In other words, we are free agents. And our suffering, if I’m hearing you, right, is the product of our MIS allocation of our freedom.

I don’t think so. I mean, you get in a vehicle intoxicated, as all get out, you kill yourself or someone else. That’s a That’s cause and effect kind of effect, that kind of thing. Yes. Could God the creator of us, interject? Yes. Okay. Is it powerful enough? Yes. I,

so God doesn’t as a result of God’s desire to preserve our freedom. So kind of what you

said, now, now you’re getting to something that’s probably far more of an intellectual conversation that I’m, I’m gonna say, I’m not smart enough to carry on totally not true. Well, you know, I do that a lot of people would say that, yes,

yeah. Yeah. And you hear that you hear that a lot, like, you know, pray for this person, that they will survive their diagnosis, and people do. And they do, right. And then there are people who have that same kind of prayer circle, and they pray, and that person doesn’t

survive. And they’re stories of the people that do survive talking of actually feeling, the outpouring of prayer, and actually just just explaining, and expressing what that felt like, and it’s just,

and then they’re the people who don’t? Yeah, and that’s, those are the people I tend to see, you know, I see, I spend most of my time with the people who did all the right things. And still, the story ended with sadness and, and suffering. And their questions are, what’s the point? Right, what’s the point of facing in a God who seems to be indifferent, who knows my name and then walks away? Which is a powerful and very lonely place to stand, you know? So this is why it’s such a difficult question for Christianity in his book, creation and the persistence of evil. A Jewish scholar named John Levinson writes, that God in entering human history, chose to in a sense, check his power, God’s power at the door, because to enter into a relationship with human beings, with that kind of power, it would not be a free relationship, it would be compulsion, it would be resignation, I have to love and serve you. Because you have more power than I do. You know what I mean? It’s not free. It’s, I feel compelled, because you’re bigger than me. But if God checks God’s power at the door, and then comes in full and free love, that’s a free relationship as a result, then God is not God chooses by setting that aside, to not have the power to alter the course of history. So it’s fairly complicated, right? Because then it’s like, Well, so are you saying God’s powerless? Well, if God decides to set that aside, then God makes God Self powerless, because of love. That’s pretty incredible, really gorgeous story. But it makes us all vulnerable. So there’s another book called narratives of the abused God, you know, because God sets God’s power aside. And so all of that is to say, Does God have the power to change it? And if God does, why does it happen for some, and why doesn’t it happen for others? And that’s, that’s the that’s another question of the Odyssey, then you have people who, who, who recognize that while God doesn’t alter the ways that that cells mutate, which causes cancer, or that God doesn’t alter the flow of blood, with cholesterol and plaque in arteries which cause heart disease, that but but that God chooses to be with us, that maybe that’s enough that God is with us in our suffering. Not that God causes it. Not that God allows it. Not that God changes it, but that God sits and walks with us in it. And that’s really the best that the Christian faith I think, has to offer. Because we can’t say that God is capricious, saving some and damning others, I think we have to say that God is not willing that any should die, which is biblical, but that all of us will, and God is alongside us, in our suffering, and God knows suffering, because God, God’s self has suffered in the story of Jesus, of course,

all those things that you just said, are good enough for me. Yeah, you know,

I want them to be a struggle with it sometimes still? Well,

I just, I think it’s, it’s good enough for me. And it’s not me being an ignorant person and saying, I don’t want to continue to seek that and seek more, seek more answers, for my eyes to be opened even wider. I just I like that I like the Jewish, please say his name again. ivinson.

John Levinson,

I loved that, that was really beautiful.

Imagine that you, you know, you have the power to change everything. But doing so would mean, people aren’t free to be in relationship with you on their own terms. And so you take that bag, and you put it at the door, and you walk in vulnerable, like everyone else. And that’s what I think we mean when we say that God becomes human, which is how the Christian narrative has Jesus entering the story is God’s kind of in fleshed person. There’s debate about that, whatever. But I think the predominant Christian narrative is that Jesus is the is the enfleshed God who comes to earth and does so with power, but also with restraint. And it’s, it’s complicated for people who suffer because they want healing to. They’re all their stories in the Bible of people coming to Jesus, and some of them get healed. And some of them don’t, because Jesus has to steal away and go to the mountain or go to the sea and reconnect with his father. And there’s some people left, wanting more. And that’s hard. That’s hard. But I think that’s how life works. I don’t think that it’s I think it’s as this is the best of all possible worlds. And we still have to deal with suffering. You see it every day. I see it every day. A lot of people don’t see it every day, especially if you turn off the TV and you don’t accept the newspaper. You don’t go online. You don’t have to see it every day. But there’s suffering everywhere at all times. And I imagine that God’s heart is the first of all hearts to break every time they’re suffering. That to me is enough. We just know we’re not alone.

And you ladies and gentlemen are not every week, Dr. Carol myself, hope to be a part of your life in some way, form or fashion and we hope that what we say encourages and inspires. opened your eyes and minds a little bit on the 75th episode 70 Wow. I am so grateful for each and every single one of you please visit your day Please go to forward slash you’ll die try and give us a five star review on your listening devices. Send us an email.

Send us a voice message using anchor Voice and email us your dough Trang I’m Jonathan Carroll. I’m Nathan Morris, you are not alone. None of us is. rethink what has happened to you assign new meaning to it and use it as fuel to become the person you’ve always longed to be. We’ll all do it together.